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Subject: so then


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Original Message 1/57                 Date: 04-Jan-05  @  01:07 PM   -   so then

cheddar

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if homeland security can become because of a few thousand dead then what can happen if there are 150,000 dead

brown people



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Message 2/57                 Date: 04-Jan-05  @  02:08 PM   -   RE: so then

S1GNALRUNNERS - BLU

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why?



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Message 3/57                 Date: 05-Jan-05  @  04:10 AM   -   RE: so then

Garuna

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A Thai meterologist warned of a tsunami in 1998. It never reached Thailand and he was fired for spreading panic and spoiling tourism. He also wanted a warning system then. Now he has been reinstated.

Humans are still quite primal. We only react to dangers we can see and understand, despite science.



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Message 4/57                 Date: 05-Jan-05  @  07:05 AM   -   RE: so then

psylichon

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Quite astute, gary. Where you been lately? All's well, i hope.



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Message 5/57                 Date: 05-Jan-05  @  06:40 PM   -   RE: so then

k

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yeah, i'm surprised no-ones asked this MORE.... ok, you cant predict earthquakes really, but, surely all over the world scientists saw the quake as it happened because they are monitoring that sort of thing day in day out... the waves hit 3 HOURS later... so... why was no-one warned in that 3 hour gap?
(those who could be warned at least)

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 6/57                 Date: 05-Jan-05  @  09:30 PM   -   RE: so then

nutoniom

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'cause they are not paying for the service.

i don't pay and don't have cable. i didn"t get to see janet's tit live. simple



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Message 7/57                 Date: 07-Jan-05  @  02:24 AM   -   RE: so then

Garuna

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Right and the only countries who subscribe to the warning system are the ones who have regular tsunamis. Point in case. Even if South Asia subsribed, it wouldn't help much because every local police station would have to know along with every hotel and every tourist. Education basically. But it's worse than say a hurricane that comes in 10 times slower. So the system would have to be 10 times more effective. Even in places like Seattle. Big tsunami arrival time 10 minutes. What good would a warning system do?

Psy, I'm fine. Just can't get on chat. Tried to send you an e-mail. If send a dt "fan" mail will you get it?



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Message 8/57                 Date: 07-Jan-05  @  05:53 AM     Edit: 07-Jan-05  |  05:54 AM   -   RE: so then

psylichon

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that should work, yes.

It's always sad and slightly amusing how every time a natural disaster hits like this, we try to place blame in ourselves for lack of a warning system. I think ya have to chalk it up to "shit happens" every now and then. No matter how clever we think we can get, the universe will always find a way to throw a "fuck you, ya ain't got a clue" our way every now and then. This is the human experience.

I don't mean to sound callous... the carnage from this disaster is truly gutting, emotionally. But we will survive and learn... that's the point innit...



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Message 9/57                 Date: 07-Jan-05  @  06:20 AM   -   RE: so then

mcc>

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nature giveth what it also takes away.



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Message 10/57                 Date: 07-Jan-05  @  07:24 AM   -   RE: so then

Garuna

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Amen



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Message 11/57                 Date: 07-Jan-05  @  10:26 AM   -   RE: so then

k

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well, it's certainly changed the whole global vibe at least. The emphasis now has shifted from US revenge, international fear & hate, to some sort of global empathy now.

The Force truly moves in mysterious ways it has to be said. I think it'll be hard for Bush & the warmongers to drag people back to that other place since this happened.... at least for a while anyways.

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 12/57                 Date: 07-Jan-05  @  11:42 AM   -   RE: so then

DJ MEGAHEAD

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[image file]




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Message 13/57                 Date: 07-Jan-05  @  11:55 AM   -   RE: so then

DJ MEGAHEAD

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[image file]


Says it all really



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Message 14/57                 Date: 07-Jan-05  @  02:25 PM   -   RE: so then

nutoniom

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garuna, a warning system would be fairly cheap and very effective . a few sensor equipped buoys with gps uplink and some sirens.

the real problem is no dykes, everything built in function of tourist god who wants to be ON the beach. who cares about the poor people serving them for peanuts...

anyway, i'll just shut up now.

google search terms of the day: aceh mobil oil

and if your truly bored: 2004 yd5



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Message 15/57                 Date: 07-Jan-05  @  03:28 PM   -   RE: so then

k

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that first shot looks a bit suspicious. I can see at least 2 people smiling!

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 16/57                 Date: 07-Jan-05  @  08:00 PM   -   RE: so then

DJ MEGAHEAD

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[image file]


'



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Message 17/57                 Date: 07-Jan-05  @  08:01 PM   -   RE: so then

DJ MEGAHEAD

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[image file]


'



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Message 18/57                 Date: 07-Jan-05  @  08:02 PM   -   RE: so then

DJ MEGAHEAD

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[image file]


last one.



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Message 19/57                 Date: 07-Jan-05  @  10:23 PM     Edit: 07-Jan-05  |  10:26 PM   -   RE: so then

Zazza

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What i want to know is how come the UK Government is willing to koff up £15 Billion to kill 100,000 Iraquis and only £100 Million to help the families of 150,000 victiims of the Tsunami.

Perhaps we should restrict war finance to public donations only? Wonder how much the UK public would have raised to invade Iraq.

Same applies in the US I guess...

Is it my imagination or do GW and Bliar look pissed that their agenda has been usurped.. makes their 'Global Terror' bullshit look a bit pathetic doesn't it?



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Message 20/57                 Date: 07-Jan-05  @  10:39 PM     Edit: 07-Jan-05  |  11:28 PM   -   RE: so then

Influx

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nevermind. not gettin into this.

those pics are fucking heavy



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Message 21/57                 Date: 08-Jan-05  @  02:50 AM     Edit: 08-Jan-05  |  02:51 AM   -   RE: so then

psylichon

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Heavy pics no doubt, but...

"What i want to know is how come the UK Government is willing to koff up £15 Billion to kill 100,000 Iraquis and only £100 Million to help the families of 150,000 victiims of the Tsunami.Perhaps we should restrict war finance to public donations only? Wonder how much the UK public would have raised to invade Iraq.Same applies in the US I guess...Is it my imagination or do GW and Bliar look pissed that their agenda has been usurped.. makes their 'Global Terror' bullshit look a bit pathetic doesn't it?"

spot on, geezer... and the sad thing is that all these countries and businesses are ponying up money just to look good. It's so sad how exponential the rate of giving has been... "they're giving money? oh well, i better do more"... it just shows that very few try to be good unless others are looking.

Bush is case in point.

And even when he "makes good" with welfare money, it's still orders of magnitude smaller than the amount he shells out to "make evil"... i.e. death. It sucks to get into this shit, yes, but it's glaring you in the face every day... just fuckin amazing...



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Message 22/57                 Date: 08-Jan-05  @  02:53 AM   -   RE: so then

psylichon

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Although, i will say that there are much worse outlets for global one-upmanship than disaster relief. It will also be interesting to see the direction world events take from this point on. It does seem to be a pivotal disaster on many levels.



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Message 23/57                 Date: 08-Jan-05  @  08:27 AM     Edit: 08-Jan-05  |  08:36 AM   -   RE: so then

cheddar

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expect silence and then some new attack before they switch the record back on. "now where did I put Osama's phone number?"



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Message 24/57                 Date: 08-Jan-05  @  12:14 PM   -   RE: so then

Zazza

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Of course, historically, governments promise aid $ and then fail to deliver later...
So you cut those promises of aid by 50-60% at least...

The other thing is that they tend to take money from one part of the aid budget and transfer it to the 'poster boy' humantiarian disaster of the moment... thus not actually spending any more money than they were going to anyways...

sick fucks..



Then US lags badly in aid as well, compared to other rich countries:

The United States ranks the lowest of all 21 OECD countries examined in the share of national resources devoted to development aid for poor countries.

As a proportion of gross domestic product, Denmark leads in foreign aid spending at 1.06 percent, not including military assistance -- followed by the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, Luxemburg, Belgium, Switzerland, France and the United Kingdom. The US comes in at 0.11% of GDP.

The biggest recipient of US aid by the way is Israel at $4 Billion a year. Not sure if this should count at all as it basically pays for the Israeli military machine.

Ho hum....



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Message 25/57                 Date: 08-Jan-05  @  01:59 PM   -   RE: so then

k

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quote
Is it my imagination or do GW and Bliar look pissed that their agenda has been usurped.. makes their 'Global Terror' bullshit look a bit pathetic doesn't it?


agreed - it's killed the Bush/Blair war/fear machine stone dead in it's tracks.

so when this Ohio recount due then?... soon innit?

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 26/57                 Date: 08-Jan-05  @  02:53 PM   -   RE: so then

Zazza

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The 'Biggest Threat' the world faces in the 21st Century isn't a bunch of loser terrorists.. it's poverty...

The combination of multi-nationals and their 'bought and paid for' governments pushing through their 'I want to be a Billionaire' agendas kill far more innocent people than Osama and his band of merry men could ever hope to in amonth of Sundays...

In fact, considering how easy it is to kill large numbers of people... poisoned water supplies... gas in subways... bombs in shopping malls etc etc they don't seem to be constituting much of a threat, or perhaps they're all too busy beating the crap out of US Marines in 'Liberated Iraq'?

And what do the american people get out of it? 10,000 cripples and counting? Still I guess the arms industries make a fair few billion.

Reminds me of that classic tactic of some US Companies taking out life insurance on their employees... trouble was it was the company that got the pay-off not the families... what did they call it?

Oh yeah Dead Peasant insurance hahaha










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Message 27/57                 Date: 08-Jan-05  @  11:45 PM     Edit: 09-Jan-05  |  01:39 AM   -   RE: so then

pict

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How much of that charity is getting to them?I'd like to know that if I give some money that some poor person gets to feel the benefit from that money as it is we have to trust that after several corrupt bureaucracies ,warlords,and local crooks have had their slice that there is enough to make an impact..Then what?"I gave a tenner so I did what I could" that seems to be how people tend to react from what I see around me.Out of the woodwork lots of minor celebrities crawl lending their banal professionaly compassionate furrowed brows to THEIR public, and wannabe pop stars start writing nauseatingly chart felt songs about empathy and sympathetic vibes to the poor "Taiwanese or was it it Thailandese?" tsunami victims.We need to do more than offer a wave of hypocritical spouting and quickly forgotten alms like we usually do.

I think a lot of people want total change and an event like this could be siezed as an opportunity to make real the best and most positive aspirations of humanity.



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Message 28/57                 Date: 09-Jan-05  @  09:10 AM   -   RE: so then

Zazza

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"I think a lot of people want total change and an event like this could be siezed as an opportunity to make real the best and most positive aspirations of humanity."

Couldn't agree more mate... the World is in a pretty fucked state and needs better than the shit-sucking morons that currently run it.

Problem we have is that who the hell do we vote for?

In the UK we have elections coming up and the biggest issue (according to the polls) is Iraq. But who the hell do we vote for? None of the big parties are prepared to make that change of direction, none of the small parties have any credibility with the voters...

Great to be powerless isn't it?



Also agree on the problem with aid and debt relief being sucked up by the local corrupt governments... bit like the Iraq money being sucked up by arms and reconstruction contractors and virtually none going to local people/businesses.

I'm open to suggestions...?



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Message 29/57                 Date: 11-Jan-05  @  01:59 AM   -   RE: so then

Garuna

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Those pictures are not from the recent Tsunami. They are small tidal waves that come in off the coast of China each September. It's a tourist attraction.



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Message 30/57                 Date: 11-Jan-05  @  02:23 AM   -   RE: so then

Garuna

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[image file]


This is real.



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Message 31/57                 Date: 11-Jan-05  @  04:00 AM   -   RE: so then

Humble Granny

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That is one gruesome fucking picture.



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Message 32/57                 Date: 12-Jan-05  @  12:39 AM   -   RE: so then

k

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quote
I'm open to suggestions...?


start a new political party on the www?

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 33/57                 Date: 12-Jan-05  @  12:53 AM   -   RE: so then

Influx

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damn. that is well beyond greusome

I forgot what this thread was about..oh yeah...cheddar bitching about the US yet again. yawn



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Message 34/57                 Date: 12-Jan-05  @  09:47 AM   -   RE: so then

cheddar

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yeah just soooo boring, sorry its me im simple minded

i just cant understand these things, its beyond me, on one hand we have monied politicians eroding civil liberties and making templates for their monied political friends in their intergvernemntal conference and on the other we have well paid slaves too busy obsessing about their expensive baubles and somewhat vacuous lives to notice or care

its just me - just me, back to your new improved diversion



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Message 35/57                 Date: 12-Jan-05  @  01:22 PM   -   RE: so then

nutoniom

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quote
start a new political party on the www?


k for president !!



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Message 36/57                 Date: 12-Jan-05  @  02:17 PM   -   RE: so then

k

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not me, you do it

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 37/57                 Date: 12-Jan-05  @  02:26 PM   -   RE: so then

nutoniom

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[image file]


no no no, you have the infrastructure and the credibility.

here's a quick logo.

besides, it's your idea :p



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Message 38/57                 Date: 12-Jan-05  @  04:23 PM   -   RE: so then

Influx1

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cheddar

thing is..its not just the US, man. You have singled us out time and time again and its getting stupid. Politicians are greedy fcking idiots across the board it seems. Beleive me..I think about this all the time....the amount of money that gets spent on frivolous bullshit (space exploration? wtf?!?!?) when there are millions starving and dying for NO reason.

you oversimplify things to the point of being ludicrous.

now..Im sure youll come back with some criticism about my "4X4" (the 1994 that has 160000 miles on it because I cant afford to buy anything else) and how Im just another greedy evil american, and we're all the same.



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Message 39/57                 Date: 12-Jan-05  @  10:50 PM   -   RE: so then

Pongoid

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Now about that politcal party....I'm running for Emperor. I PROMISE that I will fix things. I won't necessarily be the nicest guy or the most polite, but I guarantee you that if I am Emperor, NOBODY ANYWHERE on Earth will have to starve within five years of my taking the reins. The rich won't be so rich, the poor won't be so poor, and nobody will have to pay for food, health costs or housing. Better drug education, better sex education, better food education. In fact, within ten years of my taking power, nobody will have any excuse for doing stupid shit.

Terrorism? Won't happen on my shift. Know why? Cuz the first time it does, I'll level the whole country the terrorist belongs to. No point in terrorizing anyone. Just come talk to me. I'll listen. You might not like my answer, but I'll listen. I'll be a very nice guy, and if you mess with the bull, you'll get the horns. It will NOT be a democracy. However, you won't care. It'll be better than a Democracy because greed won't be a factor. Why? Because it won't have to be. If you and your people are not starving and nobody else's are either and everyone has places to live and health care, what do you need loads of money for?

There will be a couple of catches, like conscription to serve on a farm raising food, and EVERYONE, no exceptions for anyone, has to do it for a couple years, then another year building homes, and getting the basic education, but after that...you're free to do your creative thing, and are encouraged to do so, however that manifests itself. You'll never have to pay for or worry about food again.

I don't have all the bugs worked out, and may never have them all worked out, but you could do a LOT worse than having me as emperor. Remember, I care about YOU.


Now about that picture...I'll bet that place sure stinks right about now. That's a LOT of corpses rotting in the water. Talk about low tide....BLEEEAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!


Ape



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Message 40/57                 Date: 12-Jan-05  @  10:54 PM   -   RE: so then

milan

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didnt read all that but you said "better drugs, better sex, better food" right?

VOTE APE!!!!!!!!!!!!



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Message 41/57                 Date: 12-Jan-05  @  11:02 PM   -   RE: so then

pict

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Nah! Fuck emperors!!!Preferably with a lump hammer,over the head.



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Message 42/57                 Date: 12-Jan-05  @  11:57 PM   -   RE: so then

beds

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"better drugs, better sex, better food"


how about "drugs, sex, food" ? (not necessarily in that order)



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Message 43/57                 Date: 13-Jan-05  @  01:58 AM   -   RE: so then

cheddar

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well actually your right. in that rather big box of evil americans i confused you with craig, i cant get over those got my porsche blues, nevermind, you all look the same to me

so apart from being cool, and catching breaks, maybe promoting awareness and having fun, what does Marcellis Wallace look like?



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Message 44/57                 Date: 13-Jan-05  @  02:25 AM   -   RE: so then

Influx1

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yeah dude, we're evil. Especially craig

you fuckin crack me up cheddar, you and your chest thumping about SUVs and autos in general. You FLY, dont you? From what I gather, fairly frequently?

are you aware that airplanes use more fuel than all the autos on the planet combined, and produce FAR more toxins?

glass houses indeed



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Message 45/57                 Date: 13-Jan-05  @  06:20 AM   -   RE: so then

psylichon

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motivations aside, raggin' on someone relentlessly is not the way to solve problems. I met you, cheds, and you're a fun-loving, creative type who likes to get high. I understand your confusion as to why American society has been allowed to proliferate the way it has, but you know the answer is greed, and you know this because you have it in you too. America is a horrible overamplifcation of the selfishness that exists in all of us.

recognize this and come at the problem from a framepoint of empathy and love for your fellow humans, regardless of their behavior, and you might get somewhere when it comes to influencing people.

just my suggestion.



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Message 46/57                 Date: 13-Jan-05  @  06:22 AM   -   RE: so then

psylichon

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Cause seriously, has anyone ever changed their lifestyle because of an ongoing rant on a web forum?



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Message 47/57                 Date: 13-Jan-05  @  06:42 AM   -   RE: so then

chroma

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well some have been known to quit frequenting said fora



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Message 48/57                 Date: 13-Jan-05  @  07:36 AM   -   RE: so then

psylichon

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Well, that kinda proves my point innit.



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Message 49/57                 Date: 13-Jan-05  @  10:03 AM     Edit: 13-Jan-05  |  10:05 AM   -   RE: so then

cheddar

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So what you want it both ways, Fora dont mean nothing but people leave. Really are sensibilities so important that they must only have the most choice forms to bathe in, anything not optimal is just a waste of time. I suspect a life according to playlist is just habit,

Then "record" and "play", play. Are you something to be seen or something seeing. record and play.

But anyway Influx, I thought I got quite close to an appology and being nice (albeit at Craigs expense), and if you must live in the way beyond then 4 big wheels is good and other respectful whinney type noise but seriously, what does Marcellis Wallace look like?

And I love you to P{y and you are right and I really dont care, changing people is a waste of time and is manipulation but doing something can be researched and improved - the faster the better - and I never understood why trolls are bad for a place. If we can have owls and bears then donkeys are a must

Still - its (boringly) true that individuals are innocent but nations are to blame.



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Message 50/57                 Date: 13-Jan-05  @  10:38 AM   -   RE: so then

Influx1

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what does Marcellus Wallis look like?

I have NO fckin idea what this has to do with anything. Ving Rhames is a handsome black man who is a very good actor...connection?

point is cheddar, no matter how smugly removed you think you are from this farce, unless youre 100% self sufficient, youre PART of it, and all the mudslinging you come up with is nothing short of laughable.

Im tired of being apologetic for being a WHITE American. The government fucks up on a regular basis, and many of the people are idiots, but at the same time all the asinine finger pointing goes so far beyond reason it makes my stomach turn.

picking on someone like craig for loving fast cars is fucking stupid

yesterday I got a ride home from the mountain (in case anyone didnt notice, I finally left SoCal and am living in Bend, Oregon) in a HUMMER. Not the original impressive piece of machinery but an H2, and the guy that owns it and gave me the ride embodies everything youre railing against...but HE IS NOT ME. Craig is not him, and on and on.



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Message 51/57                 Date: 13-Jan-05  @  12:07 PM   -   RE: so then

k

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omg Influx... you are so.... white !!

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 52/57                 Date: 13-Jan-05  @  12:39 PM     Edit: 13-Jan-05  |  02:49 PM   -   RE: so then

cheddar

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"youre PART of it, and all the mudslinging you come up with is nothing short of laughable." - So either you are eating or being eaten then, i would like to think that gruesome picture would put some off their food. ANyway its never one thing or another (listen to me)

The Criag thing isnt the love of the fast car it's the having and not using of a thing for the love of the thing, a thing is a plain circle but the relationship Craig has with his Porsche is a spiral which cant touch the sides or alternativley being owned by something you bought - OK passion can do that easily but to not enjoy that passion..... OK I should be having this conversation with Craig but - well i suppose i am. Craig mate - I have broadsided many a classic round a sharp bend, its what they are made for, except Rollers - they are boats.



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Message 53/57                 Date: 13-Jan-05  @  02:29 PM   -   RE: so then

nutoniom

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"and if you mess with the bull, you'll get the horns."

ape, the bull has been done to death. i mean, please, we just burried the fish. we're doing the flow thing now, get on with the programme.





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Message 54/57                 Date: 13-Jan-05  @  04:55 PM   -   RE: so then

pict

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Aye if you mess with the sponge you'll get the water.



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Message 55/57                 Date: 13-Jan-05  @  05:33 PM   -   RE: so then

Influx1

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"omg Influx... you are so.... white !! "

You mean that as a ribbing, k, but the fact is in this day and age many whites are taught to be ashamed, as if being white immediately puts them in a certain category. I for one am tired of it.

Cheddar..Im sorry but yet again I just dont understand your point. Forget talking about 99devils...

lets agree on one thing: If people werent so fcking greedy and shortsighted, we could damn near eliminate homelessness, starvation and poverty. That effort would need to include the idiots that keep cranking out children when theyre already incapable of supporting themselves let alone more progeny. Its not JUST the rich destroying the nation. Greed and self-centeredness manifest in many ways.

what happened a couple weeks ago is horrible, but from what I understand the relief effort is pretty impressive (except for certain instances, like Canada's lagging on even GOING?)



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Message 56/57                 Date: 13-Jan-05  @  05:48 PM   -   RE: so then

nutoniom

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he he, BLAME CANADA !!!!!

but seriously, they're waiting on the shipment of almost never used, slightly punctured english boats and they're ready to go.



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Message 57/57                 Date: 14-Jan-05  @  12:18 AM   -   RE: so then

Pongoid

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Nah, really, I'll fix this shit. I can't prevent tsunamis, but I'll kick local assholes in the balls that withold aid, like they're doing now. Here, I have something for you folks. It's not all good there.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aceh: An Interview with Allan Nairn

Allan Nairn interviewed by Derrick O'Keefe

Seven Oaks Magazine
January 04, 2005

Derrick O'Keefe: Could you tell us the latest with
respect to the devastation caused by last month's
earthquake and tsunami, specifically in Aceh?

Allan Nairn: Well, the coastal areas of Aceh have been
crushed by the earthquake and the tsunami. Large parts
of Banda Aceh are under water; they've become part of
the sea. The west coast is hardest hit and whole
villages are leveled. But this is not the first
catastrophe to hit Aceh. Previously, it was devastated
by unnecessary and preventable poverty. Aceh is rich in
resources; it's one of the world's main natural gas
producers. It supplies much of the natural gas for
South Korea and Japan, and yet the revenues have gone
to Exxon Mobil and the central government in Jakarta,
with almost nothing left for the poor of Aceh. And as a
result, we've seen malnutrition and undernourishment
levels among the children of Aceh running as high as 40
percent.

O'Keefe: A number of activist groups in the United
States have concerns that the Indonesian government
will hamper disaster relief efforts, and also that they
will exploit the situation to further repress Acehnese
political activists. Do you know of, or see evidence of
this taking place in Aceh?

Nairn: Well, the Indonesian military is doing that as
we speak. They are continuing to attack villages, more
than a dozen villages in East Aceh and North Aceh away
from the coast, even though General Susilo, the
president of Indonesia, announced that they would be
lifting the state of siege. He hasn't actually done it.
And an Indonesian military spokesman came out and said,
we will keep attacking until the President tells us to
stop.'

The military is also impeding the flow of aid. They've
commandeered a hanger at the Banda Aceh airport, where
they are taking control of internationally shipped in
supplies. We just got a report this afternoon that the
distribution of supplies is being done in some towns
and villages only to people who hold the red and
white,' which is a special ID card issued to Acehnese
by the Indonesian police. You have to go to a police
station to get one of these ID cards, and it is only
issued to people who the police certify as not being
opponents of the army, not being critics of the
government. Of course many people are afraid to go and
apply for such a card.

There's been a tremendous outpouring from the public;
all over the world people are giving donations. But
most of these donations are being channeled through the
UN agencies or through the big mainstream charities.
There's a major problem. Those agencies and charities
all have contracts with the Indonesian government,
contracts which oblige them to either channel funds
through the government or work in concert with the
government, which means that government officials and
army officers can steal the aid, and there are already
indications that this is happening. And even that aid
which is not stolen may be used in a way to consolidate
military control over the population.

O'Keefe: What is the background to the political
conflict in Aceh?

Nairn: Really the second wave of devastation to hit
Aceh was the Indonesian military. Aceh is one of the
most repressive places in the world. They have been
under de facto Martial Law for years. Now,
international relief workers and foreign journalists
are pouring in, but, until the tsunami, they were
banned by the Indonesian military. The reason is that
the Acehnese want a free vote; they want a referendum
which would give them the option of choosing
independence from the central government and Indonesia.

In 1999, there was a demonstration in front of the
Grand Mosque in Banda Aceh which drew anywhere from 400
000 to a million people. That's anywhere from 10
percent to a quarter of the entire Acehnese population
of 4 million. In proportional terms, that makes it one
of the largest political demonstrations in recent world
history. The military responded to this demonstration
by crushing the civilian political movement that was
calling for referendum - assassinating, disappearing,
raping activists, and continuing with the massacres
that had already dotted Aceh with mass graves before
the tsunami created new mass graves.

The Indonesian military actually encourages the armed
conflict that is going on between them and the GAM
(Aceh Freedom Movement), which is an armed rebel pro-
independence group. The Indonesian military
occasionally sells weapons to the GAM. The military
likes this war because, one, they can't be defeated
militarily, and two, because it gives them a rationale
for their political existence. The Indonesian military
is one of the most repressive and corrupt in the world
and, after the fall of Suharto, it became extremely
unpopular in Indonesia - there was a strong popular
movement against it. But by prolonging the war in Aceh,
the Indonesian armed forces are able to say to the
public, see, we're facing an armed rebellion, you need
us to protect you.' And then third, the war in Aceh is
a rich source of corruption for the Indonesian military
officers. They do systematic extortion of business,
small business and the poor, so they want to stay
there. And they crush the civilian movement to avoid a
political contest that they might well lose, and they
encourage a military fight which they can only win.

O'Keefe: It sounds very much as if conditions for the
people of Aceh are as bad today as they were under the
Suharto dictatorship. When did the conflict between the
independence movement of Aceh and the government of
Jakarta begin, and what are its origins?

Nairn: Well, Aceh as a nation predates Indonesia. It
was actually an ancient kingdom that ruled the area
that is now Aceh as well as a lot of what is now
Malaysia. When Indonesia came into being after World
War II, with the uprising against the Dutch
colonialists, Aceh played a leading role in fighting
off the Dutch. And the Acehnese made a bargain with the
other islands that came to form Indonesia that they
would join the new country of Indonesia in exchange for
substantial internal autonomy, and freedom to go their
own way. But very quickly the central government in
Jakarta reneged on that deal, and the Acehnese became
quite unhappy. And then when Suharto and his army
seized power in the 1965-67 period, and staged
massacres all across Indonesia to consolidate their
power, it began a period of military repression of the
pro-independence movement in Aceh. The Acehnese tried
for years the political route, and it didn't work. Then
in the 1970s the GAM, the armed rebel movement, was
formed. But even before they existed the Indonesian
military and police were killing Acehnese civilians.

O'Keefe: What are some of the connections between U.S.
corporate interests and the Indonesian military
repression in Aceh?

Nairn: There's one main connection, and that's Exxon
Mobil. Their natural gas facility dominates the
Acehnese economy, by way of extraction. They also have
Indonesian troops garrisoned on their property. The
Exxon Mobil company pays protection money to the
Indonesian military and the military buries bodies of
its victims on Exxon Mobil lands. The revenues from
Exxon Mobil are a mainstay of the Jakarta central
government. Not much of it finds its way back to Aceh.

O'Keefe: As someone who operates in the United States,
what did you think of the spectacle over the past
couple of days of U.S. military helicopters delivering
aid, in sharp contrast to U.S. military operations over
the past couple of years in Iraq, for instance?

Nairn: It's bitterly ironic. You don't even have to go
as far a field as Iraq to get an illustration of the
role the U.S. has played. The Indonesian military is a
long-time client of the U.S. The U.S. supported the
military as they were bringing Suharto to power, as
they were carrying out a massacre of anywhere from 400
000 to a million Indonesians during 1965-67. The U.S.
gave the green light to the invasion of East Timor by
the Indonesian military, which wiped out a third of the
Timorese population, 200 000 people.

It's only as a result of grassroots lobbying in the
U.S. after the '91 Dili massacre that the U.S. Congress
stepped in and cut off much of the U.S. military aid to
Indonesia. But this was done over the objection of the
U.S. executive, over the objection of the first
President Bush, and then President Clinton, and now the
current President Bush. And there will be a major
battle coming up in the U.S. Congress as Bush tries to
restore the military aid now. But hopefully the public
will bring enough pressure to bear on Congress that
Congress will resist.

But the U.S. has deep complicity in the massacres over
the years in Indonesia, in occupied Timor, currently in
Papua and very recently and currently in Aceh. So it's
bitterly ironic to see U.S. helicopters coming ashore
in the role of deliverers of relief.

O'Keefe: You've mentioned some problems with the
established NGOs working in Indonesia and Aceh. Is
there a way that people can contribute to the relief
effort, and to efforts to raise awareness about the
situation in Aceh more generally?

Nairn: Yes, fortunately there is a way around the
problem of Indonesian military cooptation of the UN and
big mainstream relief channels. And that is to give
directly to the grassroots Acehnese groups, which have
been working for years with people in the refugee camps
and which - even though their people are at risk - can
deliver aid directly to the public because they do not
have these contractual relationships with the
Indonesian government and military. One such group is
the People's Crisis Center (PCC) of Aceh, which for
years has been going into the re-education camps,'
which are set up by the Indonesian military - farmers
are driven off their land, put into these camps to have
their thoughts cleansed by military propagandists. And
the children in these camps were often going hungry,
not getting clean water, not getting schooling, and
people from the PCC would come in and try to aid the
children and give some education and some subsistence.
And now they're working on disaster relief. Over the
years their organizers were often targeted by the
military, but they've persisted, they've been very
brave.

Now the East Timor Action Network (ETAN) of the United
States is channeling aid to the PCC and similar on-the-
ground Acehnese groups. So if people want to donate,
they can go to the ETAN U.S. website, which is
www.etan.org.

http://www.zmag.org/ZNET.htm



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